Legal Question, I think?

"Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness" (long-voyager-2nd-edition)
10/11/2018 at 12:17 • Filed to: Legal

So we sold the truck on Sunday as most of you know.

As of Tuesday, the guy who bought it messaged me telling me it won’t start now!?!?

I talked with him and we determined it was likely just low on fuel.

Gets back to me this morning and tells me he added fuel and swapped fuel filters, it still won’t start, so he’s having it towed to the shop.

I feel terrible about it breaking down on him in 2 days, but I have no idea what would have caused it either.

Question is: Do I hold any responsibility here?

The truck was bought as is with no warranty.

Maybe Steve can weigh in on this?

Big truck for your time:

DISCUSSION (57)

Tripper > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:21

Kinja'd!!!

In all seriousness if its something small you could offer to go halvsies on it with him if you want to be a super nice guy. I wouldn’t though I don’t believe you’re liable for anything. Even if the guy wanted to do something about it he’ d have to go the small claims route...

ihm96 > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:21

You should be good. My friend and I flipped a Jaguar XJS a few years ago as college freshmen and the guy tried calling the cops on us because a few weeks later when he took it to the shop he discovered it had a massive oil leak that they wanted 1500 for or something and he wanted us to pay. We had been fully honest that we had no idea of its service history and it was steaming slightly when we sold it, I really don’t know what he expected haha

bob and john > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:22

as is, no warrenty? his problem now.

you can be nice and help him out a bit. but you arent under any legal obligation too.

also, the guy who didnt get it to start because it WAS LOW ON FUEL swapped filters and NOW it wont start? sounds like someone fucked up. not you

HammerheadFistpunch > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:22

All sales are final from a legal standpoint with As-is. At least as far as I know.

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > Tripper
10/11/2018 at 12:27

I’m thinking on going halvsies on it just because I feel terrible about it, likewise, I have my own family to support.

My bird IS the word > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:27

No, you are good legally speaking. he could also just be trying to jerk you around.

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > bob and john
10/11/2018 at 12:27

He added fuel, it still wouldn’t start so he tried swapping fuel filters, still nothing.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:28

As is, no warranty? As long as the title was transferr ed and it's registered to them, you have no obligation unless there was an intentional modification intended to induce failure that was not disclosed.

bob and john > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:29

what I am saying is dumb dumb didnt install the fuel filter or botched the reinstall of the fuel pump

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker
10/11/2018 at 12:29

My lord no!?!?!

I don’t know if they’ve transferred registration or title yet though.

Tripper > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:30

If it’s not much and it will alleviate any guilt, by all means do that. I feel guilty about stuff that I shouldn’t feel guilty about all the time. If I could circumvent that guilt with a few bucks, I’d do it every time !

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:31

As is, as is, as is.

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > bob and john
10/11/2018 at 12:31

Diesel, filters are like changing an oil filter, simple screw on. I highly doubt the guy messed that up, he seemed pretty decent IMO.

Stapleface > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:32

Nope, not your problem at all.

If you want to be nice and try to help him fix it, sure. However, the fact that he ran it out of gas and then started throwing parts at is makes me question his apti tude. Y ou’re under no legal obligation to do help him though . I look at it this way. Had you traded it in to a dealer, would a dealer be coming back to you a couple of days later and say it is broken? Nope, they wouldn’t.

benjrblant > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:32

Lehto did a few posts on this. Essentially:

You need to be aware that in most states, sales between individuals (i.e., non-dealers) are presumed to be “as-is.” As-is means the vehicle is being sold with all faults and the seller is not liable for any future repairs and is not promising to make any. What you see is what you get.

https://jalopnik.com/how-to-limit-your-risk-when-selling-a-used-car-1675983610

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/what-if-your-recently-bought-used-car-explodes-1618124525

CompactLuxuryFan > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:35

Isn’t there something special about diesels running out of fuel vs gas cars? You can’t just fill them back up and be done with it. Anyway, not your problem but also highly unlikely to be a really big problem with it, considering you didn’t see it coming at all.

PartyPooper2012 > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:37

what? No! Today it doesn’t start because he put water in fuel tank. Tomorrow it won’t drive because he removed transmission and poured sand in it.

NO. AS IS. NO WARRANTY is disclosed for this exact reason.

You would be a chump if you help him this one time... because then, he won’t leave you alone ever for any minor shit wrong with that car.

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > CompactLuxuryFan
10/11/2018 at 12:38

Isn’t there something special about diesels running out of fuel vs gas cars?

Not that I’m aware of?

facw > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:39

Not your problem. This is why a PPI is so important (and of course there’s always some chance things will break shortly after a sale, even if they were fine beforehand, if that bothers a buyer, they should only buy cars with warranties).

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > CompactLuxuryFan
10/11/2018 at 12:41

Yes, there is. Since diesel fuel systems run at higher pressure, you have to bleed the system if it runs out of fuel. That is what I recall hearing at least. Clarkson says as much when he ran that Audi to Scotland and back on a single tank in series 4 of Top Gear.

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > CompactLuxuryFan
10/11/2018 at 12:42

There is. You need to crack the injector lines and bleed the system if you run out of fuel. When you replace the filter, it is best practice to fill the new filter with diesel. I personally use Liqui Moly diesel purge to fill the new filter.

deekster_caddy > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:42

There is no warranty here, it’s his duty to have the truck inspected before the purchase if he wishes. Once it’s his, it’s completely his. You have no obligation to help him at all. That said, it does suck. You can apologize, but don’t offer any money!

benjrblant > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:43

Title transfer not so important. Bill of sale? more important as this documents the sale and the date.

nerd_racing > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:43

Yes! If you diesel truck loses it’s prime you will have a hell of a time getting it to re-start unless you bleed all of the air out of the fuel system. My small 1.7L diesel in the 323 simply would not fire until I bled all of the lines individually coming from the fuel rail. Running diesels empty is a huge no-no. And once you change that fuel filter you are also introducing a crap ton more air into the system. Most diesels have a lift pump or a priming pump that you push a crap ton of times to pressurize the system and then you loosen the fuel rail bleeder to release the trapped air. It is like bleeding brake lines. This is 100% on the buyer because they ran it too low. Then made it worse with the fuel filter.

deekster_caddy > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:44

Older diesels or really big ones need all sorts of priming in the injector pump to get them running properly again. Modern ones with electronic fuel injection don’t need as much attention that way, but it’s still bad to get air trapped in diesel lines.

Mercedes Streeter > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:45

If the truck is anything like my Suzuki GS was, there was probably some crap sitting in the bottom of the tank (water/sediment/etc ) that’s now in the fuel system and engine because he ran the fuel so low . B et if he let it sit for a few days it’ll fire right up.

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:45

Diesels need the injector lines bled if they run out of fuel. Typically that means to disconnect a few lines from the injectors, crank the motor until fuel sprays out, reconnect them, and hope it can run on a few cylinders until it bleeds the other fuel lines. Also, when you change the fuel filter, it is best practice to fill the new filter with diesel or something similar . I use diesel purge in mine.

But, if he signed a bill of sale or any other paperwork that said as is and gave you money, this is a him problem.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:47

Pretty sure you have to bleed the fuel system which is much more involved in a diesel

nerd_racing > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:47

Here is a writeup on how to change the fuel filters. Step 7 is how to prime the system properly. If you do not prime it properly it will either not run or damage the truck.

https://areadieselservice.com/blog/change-fuel-filters-03-07-ford-6l-powerstroke-engines/

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:49

It’s got to be primed.

Zaxbys > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:49

Sounds like to me he ran it out of fuel and smoked the pump. I think all you need to do is find a bowl of water... and wash your hands of this.

Ssfancyfresh > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:53

You have no obligation to help.

However, if he’s the cook at your favorite diner, you be eatin pube sandwiches for a bit. Maybe find a new spot for a few weeks.

Sovande > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:55

Nope. Don’t owe him jack. I once sold a car that didn’t even make it home. The guy claimed to be an “expert” on the model (1987 Mercedes 300D) and I let him take the car for almost two hours while he drove it, checked it and had a buddy check it. HE then called to tell me I was a liar and a thief. I hung up and never heard from him again.

Future next gen S2000 owner > nerd_racing
10/11/2018 at 12:56

This. If he ran it out of fuel, that explains why it wouldn’t start.

MonkeePuzzle > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:58

had a similar situation. sold a car, then within the week they called angry and wanting to unwind the deal after “THE WHOLE RADIATOR EXPLODED!”

I offered to help fix it, but did not accept the car back.

they turned down my offer, took it to a mechanic, who confirmed it was just a radiator hose that failed in like -15deg temps.

Future next gen S2000 owner > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 12:58

If you have a bill of sale signed by both parties, you have zero responsibility. I make a copy of the signed title as well.

It is a used vehicle that was like 20 yo right? It sucks but that is the deal. They should have gotten it inspected. As long as you didn’t intentionally cover up a problem you knew about, I wouldn’t feel bad.

A buddy sold an older C4 Corvette to a guy. A c o uple weeks, the radio shorted - we think - and it burned up while the guy was at the gym. Stuff happens to old cars.

Sovande > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 13:00

Yo u definitely need to bleed the injectors either by opening them slightly and cranking or using the lift pump (if the engine has one) til the bubbles stop and then close the injectors. They get air bound.

Source: Diesel boat and used to operate a bunch of heavy equipment and diesel boats.

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 13:10

If it's a diesel and he ran it low he probably sucked air into the system which is a big issue for diesels.

Sovande > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 13:10

I would suggest you don’t do anything for him and don’t make any suggestions to him as to how to fix it. Your responsibility ended as soon as you signed over the title. Go online and cancel the registration ASAP too.

kgman > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 13:24

Just to sum up what everyone else is saying. You sold it as is with no warranty, so it’s not your problem. Also, he screwed it up by running it empty. Diesels will not just restart after running dry. Changing filters probably made this even worse if it wasn’t done properly. Unless he knows how to prime it a shop will probably have to bleed the fuel system to get it to start again.

So, legally not your problem and you shouldn’t feel bad because he caused the problem himself and then most likely made it worse.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 13:43

Don’t lend a hand. If you do, a lawyer could twist it to mean that you admit some culpability. That sets the stage for even more legal troubles.

SteveLehto > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 14:31

You are an individual and not a dealer? If so, in most states (I don’t know which state you are in, sorry) the sale is AS IS regardless of what you think you need to do or don’t do at the time of the sale (As Is means no warranty of merchantability - which makes sense since you are not a merchant. Duh.)

The second he paid you and you handed him the keys, the truck was his. End of (legal) story. But, that does not mean he won’t 1) ask you for help, 2) bug you for money or a refund, 3) harass you because he’s a dick, 4) threaten to sue you because America, or 5) actually sue you (in a lawsuit he will lose).

1 - 4 are more or less harmless or meaningless and you can handle them as you see fit (I suggest blocking his number if he gets abusive). 5? Anyone can sue anyone. Tell me where you live and your legal name and I can have the suit filed today. Not much you can do on that (other than take solace in the fact that 99% of the threatened lawsuits never materialize).

I know this post will likely now be responded to by three kinds of comments: 1) Hey Steve, good to hear from you, 2) Thanks for the insight, and 3) You’re an idiot and don’t know what you are talking about.

Carry on.

SteveLehto > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 14:36

Irrelevant if he has not titled it or registered it yet (although it would help you if he did). <- And that does make sense, trust me.

haveacarortwoorthree2 > SteveLehto
10/11/2018 at 14:45

What Steve said! lol

Just goes to show that everyone should use a bill of sale when selling a car . Heck, just write out on a piece of paper “1980 Dodge truck. Sold as is. $250.” and have both parties sign it.

haveacarortwoorthree2 > SteveLehto
10/11/2018 at 14:47

Hey Steve, good to hear from you. Thanks for the insight. I agree with you 100%.

RPM esq. > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 15:15

You’re fine. I assume you signed the title over to him. You can help him out if you feel like being a nice guy and/or believe in karma, but you have no legal responsibility unless you lied to him outright.

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > RPM esq.
10/11/2018 at 16:05

I would never hide anything from someone, for the simple fact of I’d rather tell them too much so there’s no chance of them coming back on me.

I signed the title and he went on his way.

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > SteveLehto
10/11/2018 at 16:06

Is this something he can come back on me for if he hasn’t titled/registered it yet?

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > SteveLehto
10/11/2018 at 16:07

So basically whether he’s titled/registered it or not, once he paid me and drove away, it’s his problem?

DipodomysDeserti > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 16:36

Not quite. Sounds like you and the current owner got a bunch of air in the fuel system. He’ll need to purge the air from the fuel system if he ran it out of fuel or swapped filters without priming the system afterwards.

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > DipodomysDeserti
10/11/2018 at 16:51

Oh no, don’t include me in this, I only made the suggestion it was low on fuel, he took it into his own hands beyond that.

Dogsatemypants > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 19:14

No. Other than feeling bad you have no obligation. They could have done a ppi.

Dogsatemypants > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/11/2018 at 19:15

As long as you reported the sale.

Dogsatemypants > haveacarortwoorthree2
10/11/2018 at 19:16

In wa the title is a bill of sale. And the as is statement is printed on it.

SteveLehto > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/12/2018 at 14:01

IT IS IRRELEVANT IF HE HASN’T REGISTERED OR TITLED IT YET.

SteveLehto > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness
10/12/2018 at 14:02

Yes.

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > SteveLehto
10/12/2018 at 16:04

He has titled and registered it, he did it on Tuesday.